Topic: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?
According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) – the Instructions of the Creator – with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha  Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.

Louis Feldman (

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

Anders -

Is it then your premise, to condense what you have stated here, that the religion we know as Christianity was formed by followers of Paul, an apostate; that the sadducees were responsible for having Jesus killed by the Romans, not the Pharisees; and that, following from the previous two points, the New Testament - written in part by the same Paul - is an untruth?  I wish to be sure I understand the essence of your statements.

Honored to Serve for Him - Tom ('Mas) Pickering <)><

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

Maspick,
Yes you have understood my statements almost correctly. It should be temple-sadducees.

The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Netzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.

Ribi Yehoshua said:

"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim [prophets], but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens! “
Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu 5:17-20.

and

“Take heed against false Neviim who come to you in wool like sheep, but inside they are wolves who extort. You shall recognize them by their works. Do men pick grapes from a stinging-nettle? Or figs from a thistle? So, every green tree is unable to produce evil fruit, and a dried-up tree is unable to produce good fruit."�

Ribi Yehoshua warned for false prophets who don’t produce good fruit = defined as don’t practise the commandments in Torah. See Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.
Now you are confronted with the very words of historical Ribi Yehoshua. You can’t rebel and reject the very words he claims to follow. If you don’t follow Ribi Yehoshuas Torah-teachings, than you don’t follow Ribi Yehoshua.

So why not start following Ribi Yehoshua? To follow him by practising the commandments in Torah including helping the needy gives true meaning of life!!

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (ww.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism

Last edited by andersbranderud (2008-09-29 13:12:08)

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

Anders -

Do you accept the 4 gospels, then?

Honored to Serve for Him - Tom ('Mas) Pickering <)><

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

Maspick,
No, we don't.

As I wrote:

The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Netzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.

Read more at www.netzarim.co.il ; click at the link "Christians" in the first page.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (ww.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

Well, like all people who become members here just to push a theology, there is truth mingled with untruth.

That Jesus was a devout, practicing Jew is clear in NT scripture. He conflicted with the Pharisees when their own doctrine (their hedge, as a reader of Torah) was defeating the Torah itself. As a Torah observant in heart and in act Jesus upheld the word of the Torah (which are actually His pre-incarnate words, John 1) and the principles of the Torah "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?" (to save life)

Jesus' actions and encounters with the Judiasim of the day proved Judiasim was in a sad state. All through the TaNaK (Old Testament) we see the Israelites swayed by pagan influences. So after being subjected to 400 years of servitude under the Persians, Medo-Persians, Greeks, and Romans it would be consistent of the Jews to do some religious adaptation to all the near influence they were subjected to, hence, but the first centuary, we see a Judaism that is far from "true Judaism".

That the Torah and the TaNaK are wonderful, is perfectly acceptable to the observant Christian.

Why our friend Anders can't resolve Paul is he doesn't see how Jesus was "to the Jew first, then also to the Greek". The focus of Jesus Messiah was a particular ministry, not an all-encompassing one. Paul, and even Peter were part of the "...and also to the Greek" part. But the mysterious fact is that the very life, very Spirit of Jesus Messiah was leading them in their ministry to the Greek and Pagan world. Both Peter and Paul remained practicing and observant Jews, but they saw clearly, for the first time in history what Yahweh meant when he told the children of Israel that they would be "a light to the nations."

Bottom line is, doesn't matter if its Orthodox Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism, or Orthodox Protestantism, big religious systems tend to distance people from Yahweh (and His Son Jesus), which is the exact opposite of His desire. I don't care how Jewish a person wants to be, so long as his lively relationship with the living Jesus Messiah is the first thing.

"Bear 270, young man. Bear two, seven, zero, over." - Musings of a flight simulator guru, me.

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

Anders -

Although I am technically Jewish by heritage (on my mother's side), I was not raised as a Jew and did not know of that heritage until a little over 10 years ago.  However, I do consider myself a follower of Jesus, based primarily upon the writings of the 4 gospels, half of which were written by Jewish companions of Jesus.  Your patent rejection of those writings also indicates you believe my faith to be misguided and that, aside from my birthright newly discovered, have no right to consider myself a child of God or my salvation secured by His sacrifice upon the cross of Calvary.  I guess I should start partying again since I'm destined for the fires of hell anyway. <shaking head...>  What would draw you to this gathering of the unclean with your condemning rhetoric?

Honored to Serve for Him - Tom ('Mas) Pickering <)><

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

One of my favorite Jewish writers - Rabbi Joseph Telushkin (Jewish Wisdom & Jewish Literacy among others) - said this about Jesus: There were two things about Jesus that his contemporaries had against him. First, he claimed to be God (so even Telushkin recognizes that the NT and early (1st cen) church literature bear witness that Jesus made the claim for himself). Secondly (and this one blew me away) Jesus was way too conservative. Telushkin goes on to explain that the essence of Judiasm is to LIVE an ethical life. Jesus' demand was that one BE ethical through and through. Which, of course, is impossible - see the camel through the eye of a needle story. The question then is, how does anyone get to heaven? And Jesus response was, for man this is impossible, but for God anything is possible (or words to that effect). I guess the point here is, you can read what ever writer/thinker you want and presume that that writer has a better insight into who Jesus said he is than Jesus' contemporaries and you can believe what ever you like about the developmental process of the NT documents (which, by the way are, with out a doubt, the most reliable of ALL ancient documents of any kind), but it comes down to this, do you work your way into God's Kingdom or do you give up and allow God to bring you in (usually kicking and screaming, in my experience)?

Why prayer when you can fret and worry?

Re: The hitsorical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

andersbranderud,   Even Moses spoke of *CHRIST*!  The Old Testament scripture speaks of *CHRIST*   before *HE* came in the flesh!  The Jews believe in Moses;  but do not beieve in *CHRIST* as *CHRIST* says in the scripture below!  However there were and are many Jews who did accept *CHRIST* as the *SON* of *GOD*!

It is impossible to read the Old Testament without seeing *CHRIST* all the way through it!


Joh 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.  Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 5:36 - But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.  Joh 5:37 - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 5:38 - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 

Joh 5:39 -Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.   Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.  Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?  Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.   Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?