Re: Flash, when to use it

Nathan Smith wrote:

What's interesting is that Adobe is going to merge SWF and PDF support into one plugin. We'll have to see if that means improved accessibility for Flash, or if it will just be bloat-ware.

Nathan, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but.. "if" ? 

Acrobat Reader (just the reader) already consumes more computer resources than IE or Opera (on PCs at least.)  I would contend that a browser "enhancement" that is larger than the browser itself could reasonably be deemed bloatware.

Content Management with Standards In Mind: Vine Type | www.vinetype.com

Re: Flash, when to use it

Carl - goes to show us all that content means just as much as visuals I guess. You can go overboard either way, and I really do think 2A does do that. They are an interactive media agency (Flash prominently), but are getting more into mobile devices and stuff like that this year. I actually was interested in them in the past, but have since found them to not be on a different level than everybody else. The secular design industry needs the Lord first and foremost........without Him as the focus any of our efforts are in vain.

Re: Flash, when to use it

Carl, Yeah their site is mainly just to showcase what they can do. I don't think they are trying to win business from the casual person/business that surfed on. They are definitly pushing the envelope for what is on the web, but without them pushing it we'll never advance. I think their design is good for what they are doing. Is it good for what you and I do... probably not.

I dream with an XML intereface

Re: Flash, when to use it

@gtaviano: agreed. I think Nathan's continuum line shows it well: all-visuals <-------> all content.  I wouldn't want my website to look like either one.

@tank: 2a may be pushing the envelope, but imagine if every website looked and behaved like 2a's site.  tongue   Imagine waiting seven seconds for an introduction to build the navigation for every site you visited every day.  I think flash is great as a single page application when I'm constructing my dream car, choosing colors, interiors, wheels, etc. but as an overall website navigation system, no thanks.  2a <--------> useit: i wouldn't want my website to look like either one.

Content Management with Standards In Mind: Vine Type | www.vinetype.com

Re: Flash, when to use it

Carl Camera wrote:

@tank: 2a may be pushing the envelope, but imagine if every website looked and behaved like 2a's site.  tongue

I think you miss the point I was making. I was just saying that for 2A.. it works perfectly, but for the vast majority of sites it doesn't get the job done.

I dream with an XML intereface

Re: Flash, when to use it

@tank: hmmm.  perhaps I was unclear as well. 

I disagree with your assertion that this is a "showcase" website.  I contend that it is "the" website.  2a has chosen to use their artistic skills to create an online presence that is, if not 100% flash, quite nearly that.  This is different from a showcase site I believe in that it isn't edge.2a.com or 2ashowcase.com -- some different domain from their own.  2a.com is it.  Their company website.

I also disagree that they don't want nor care about internet traffic.  What company puts a presence on the web and hopes no one visits?  If they don't want to win business, then why bother at all?  Then if it is their commercial website, by extension I presumed that they think this is a good idea for "my" company website -- leading me to raise the issue "what if the whole web behaved like that."

So we're still disagreeing but the points are on our personal perceptions of the purpose of their website and their views on its applicability to the web in general.  Nothing we can prove here one way or another.

Content Management with Standards In Mind: Vine Type | www.vinetype.com

Re: Flash, when to use it

The following is only my opinion, so here goes:

- "Using tables for anything other than table based content is a big no no...  Proper design methods suggest using XHTML + CSS for placing content on a page."

I agree, but think about something...
Many proponents and sites reinforcing standards-based use (which SHOULD be reinforced), are driven by MoveableType, Wordpress, Typo, et al. - in other words the sites themselves are CMS-drive nwith the validation already established in the code generation of the CMS (which is not always the case even, since a certain Typo site I just visited failed transitional validation wink) The valid code is on the shoulders of the CMS, not the design in these cases. And as a side note, it's getting very easy to spot a blog site, if you know what I mean.

I work as Lead Designer in a local design house. We have numerous projects going on at any one time. Each has a budgeted number of hours and max cap for design, programming, project management, etc. I would absolutely LOVE to develop with X-validation for every site, but budget-wise it is just not realistic in our case. CSS is a beautiful and effective layout tool, but it is time consuming.  I'm pushing for padded hours to be given for this, but it has not happened yet.

- "is 2advanced a web designer site?  I spent several minutes interacting with it and never did figure out what they did....i have no idea what that company's products or services are."

The first nav button "Company", then the first sub nav "About Us" wink

Great graphics do not a great site make. I'm sure the "flash is 99% (or 100%) evil" crowd would say it doesn't even make a good one, but regardless, great graphics and atmosphere do make a "memorable" site. 2Advanced is a pioneer of Flash design. Ford, KB Homes, Motorola, CreateOnline Magazine, Eidos, Electronic Arts, Fujitsu...all of them saw something in them. They do not attempt to reach small business (none of us could afford them smile). They are fishing for the Fortune 500 ones.

------------------------------------------

Flash is able to pull content in basic HTML/CSS format, and XML drives the entire 2A site, as well as many of my own and countless others. It is a vehicle for the content, and sometimes that vehicle might crash and burn, but other times it takes flight and soars to it's destination without a hitch. Flash is still shaking its "pop-up ads/intro" stigma, which the DESIGNERS are to take the blame for, NOT Flash itself...

Re: Flash, when to use it

Carl - I think there are definitely people (and 2a is one of them) that might be putting all of this artwork and animation on the web for one reason - to show that they can do it. You can't tell me that their team is going to spend 40,000 manhours (from what they said via interview) on a client's site like they did theirs, or spend time doing some digital paintings for every section of another site. Many people in this industry have very large egos - the same people that think they are too good to comment on emails I have sent them every now and then, lol.

The answer to all of this - we all will one day have to answer for our lives here. No matter what client any of us are trying to impress, the only thing that truly matters between a designer and their client is if a soul means more than a wallet, what other clients might come along if we get your business, or if the world is in an ooh-ahh state while checking our newest stuff out.

About the loading time with Flash - I think with broadband increasing and expanding by large amount, this will one day be a non-issue (and soon). If the site has great content and great artistry I personally think it is worth a few seconds of loading. That's why I'm not afraid to use Flash for an entire site. Thanks for the discussion!!!

Last edited by gtaviano (2006-07-14 05:18:25)

Re: Flash, when to use it

@gtaviano : ditto

Re: Flash, when to use it

Yes, good discussion.

Content Management with Standards In Mind: Vine Type | www.vinetype.com