Topic: Can people be fake in church?

My father, a pastor, is the founder of a new church that is facing a rough period in church. the people he chose to be church leaders are constantly criticizing the smallest and silly-est of problems. they keep calling for a meeting, minutes recorded are often altered without his knowledge, and they keep pressurizing him to do things their way. They told him he cannot make a decision unless more than 70% of the group do not agree with him.
He confided in a certain family about his worries as he genuinely wants to build a sincere and Christ-centered church. But this family he confided started to question him on why he was depending on the church leaders and they started to push my father around to stop depending on the church leaders, and to only do what he feels best, they constantly kept saying we chose the wrong people to be leaders and they are not fit to be part of the committee, my father did not agree to this as he wanted the main body of the church to be involved and he said decisions cannot be made if others are not happy with the way things are done but later on we found out that this same family who we confided in, spoke to all the church leaders individually and told them that my father was bad-mouthing them, in fact they lied through most of the conversation by completely changing every word we had said. one of the church leaders recorded this conversation, and they all decided to approach us and ask if this was true. it was quite shocking to hear the way that family we confided in had spoken about my father. They used everything we said to them against us, we had only confided in them that people are not respecting my father his opinions and his decisions about the way certain things are to be done in the church. every decision he makes is questioned.
He has many years of experience in ministry and it is quite painful to see how people are taking advantage of his patience and humility. We do not disagree with others' opinions but they force it upon him and it has to their way or they ask him if he would like their help or not, and if he wants to run things alone...
i cant imagine how a Christian family can sit infront of us and support us, and then use our words against us, change them around completely and character assassinate a pastor...my father looks completely shattered but is trying his best to be strong to continue holding worship in the new church...please do pray that such satanic obstacles move out of the way.. my father has worked hard to build a humble image, a sincere man of God's...and its hard to see people falsely allegate a man like him... all we want to do is bring people closer to God and glorify his name...i don't understand why people cannot be patient and be more Christ-like if they call themselves Christians...

please pray for us..and the church..

God bless..

Re: Can people be fake in church?

I will certainly add this to my list.

I would like to comment on what I've learned about leadership in churches, having been one and having been savaged by some (one of which I urged the church to bring on board).  Churches, in order to thrive, need a solid cornerstone to support the its vision and be there to push against.  Christ was indeed humble, but He didn't allow Himself to be pushed around unless it served His mission, as demonstrated by the 9 or so hours that led up to His being nailed to the cross.  He demonstrated leadership through service and turned His disciples' world upside down.  Despite His humility and His servant approach, none of His disciples questioned that He was in charge, though. 

Clearly, the leadership of your church does not accept your earthly (or heavenly) father as the person in charge.  Your father inadvertently took part in the gossip mill that emerges in all churches.  By seeking out church members for guidance, rather than someone independent of the congregation, he gave up his influence.  In a similar fashion, he gave too much power to the leaders he chose without knowing their hearts before hand.

IMHO, unless your father can refocus this group on from their reliance on each other to a reliance on Christ as their head, he will continue a slide into impotence with this church.  It may be too late already.  Your father must exert the authority God granted him and retake the reigns of the church or accept that the church is now hopelessly headless.

Jesus led with a gentle but firm hand, and prepared His disciples for the task ahead of them when He left.  That is the type of leadership every church needs.  Without it, churches fall into chaos like the world.

That's my 2 cents :^{>

Honored to Serve for Him - Tom ('Mas) Pickering <)><

Re: Can people be fake in church?

"Can people be fake in church?"

Yes.

Um, Jesus was pretty much in-your-face in somewhat similar situations.
The words "brood of vipers" come to mind.

It's hard to discern whether this situation is just flawed leaders or a spiritual attack, but my advice is to confront it.
In private meetings, or one-on-one, at a retreat, or from the pulpit.

It seems to me that your father's personality avoids conflict at all costs.
I can relate to this temptation, but urge encouragement:

"Be strong and courageous!"

"I was blind, but now I see!"  John 9:25

Re: Can people be fake in church?

I highly recommend Biblical Eldership  and Monergism:Conflict as resources.

Re: Can people be fake in church?

"Informal Christianity -- Refining Christ's Church, ISBN: 978-0-6151-8078-6, 2007, 146 pages, reviews the personal and informal realities involved in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that provide the foundation of Christianity. It deals with personal discipleship, what it means to be born again, to live in regeneration through the Holy Spirit in a way that produces a genuine spiritual life in Christ. If spiritual discipline does not begin in one's own heart, it doesn't begin at all."

"Where the internal and subjective realities of regeneration are absent from the lives of church members, churches find themselves on a foundation of sand. Such churches turn away from the heart of Christianity — doctrine and theology — to focus on peripheral concerns of administration and maintenance. Christians and churches that do not enthusiastically embrace biblical doctrine and theology as the life-blood of faithfulness, tend to spend their time and energy polishing the outside of the cup (Matthew 23:25). Such efforts concern themselves with church growth — noses and nickels — rather than Christian maturity (Ephesians 4:13)."

"Informal Christianity aims to drive a nail through the heart of such trivial indulgence on the part of those who fail to live up to the potential of their Christian calling because such a failure amounts to the denial of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in their own lives. Yes, the flesh is weak, no one is disputing that. But 'the spirit indeed is willing' (Matthew 26:41). Christians 'receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon' (Act 1:8) them. Such power is the 'strength that God supplies' (1 Peter 4:11). Thus, to wallow in administrative trivialities is to deny the power of God (Mark 12:24) and to deny one's citizenship in the Kingdom of God."

from http://www.pilgrim-platform.org/informalxnty.htm

Re: Can people be fake in church?

liveforchrist wrote:

Can people be fake in church?

YES! Thus far every church I've ever been to, without exception, has been a room full of masks. Church, by and large, is a weekly meeting where people come to be acknowledged by the pastor and other members that they are OK. Even to the degree there is confession or admission of individual or corporate issues, they are decoy issues because by nature we are too afraid to be genuine.

Everything you say makes me think, "Where is the flock?" Nothing in your description sounded like that church is a group of hungry disciples and disciplers. I have to wonder if some of the tensions are because the pastor, well intentioned as so many are (bless their hearts) are trying to make a donkey fly or a pigeon pull a cart. So often I see people beating themselves to death trying to take the totally broken system or American organized religion and fit it into the vision of a spirit-filled body of believers. They are as incompatible as oil and water. To a large extent all this is why my wife and I don't attend weekly religious meetings... they are a big show (even under well intentioned pastors, I know a bunch of them).

If I can be perfectly honest, I wonder of your dad has a God-given calling and passion that he is carrying out in a not-God-given way. An "Isaac" if you will.

But I'm an outsider... just injecting thoughts. It is possible this is simply spiritual warfare that must be endured, or it may be an indication something is amiss. And if something is amiss, I wonder if it is trying to make leaders out of people who aren't leaders, followers out of those who aren't followers. Why not find the hungry?

"Bear 270, young man. Bear two, seven, zero, over." - Musings of a flight simulator guru, me.

Re: Can people be fake in church?

liveforchrist,  If church leadership is not followed as outline by scripture as many times it is not;  it will not fly!   It does not matter what i think or you think!  Only what does *GOD* think?  So many times i have seen congregations make elders or deacons out of anyone who would assume the position!  Everyone is to be proven according to scripture before putting them into an auhoritive position of anykind!

I have seen kids pratically in the roles of deacon!  If we study the biblical examples and the key being to follow after them;  we will have a fitly framed congregation that loves *GOD* with all their heart soul and mind and brothers and sisters who love each other as they love themselves!

Too many times congregations do what feels good to them without doing it *GOD*s way!  *CHRIST* is the chief cornerstone of the foundation and without being in compliance with the *WORD* of *GOD*;  we must question who or what is the foundation of the troubled church?

The biblical examples are there for us!   Scripturally speaking;  if the leaders were set up properly;  there should be no schisms in the body!  However if problems started out small as often they do and were not dealt with asap;  they will only grow and tear a congregation to pieces!  All the pettiness of power hungry leaders or prideful leaders does not show the humbleness of *CHRIST* nor does it show the love of *GOD* if there is back biting taking place!

The source or sources of these problems must be dealt with by going straight to them and if they reject scriptural reprove;  then it must be took before the church and if it cannot be dealt with properly then;  it is time to kick the dust off of your feet and seek a *GOD* loving and *GOD* fearing congregation to fellowship with. 

*GOD* has given us the *WORD* to live by!  We must do it *HIS* way;  because the world's ways never will work in an organization that is not worldly!  Hope this helps!  Remember everything must be done in love and according to *GOD*s will!
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                                                         The *WORD* to live by:  To live is *CHRIST*;  to die is gain!

Re: Can people be fake in church?

As I have understand the position of your father in this church and FROM A MANAGEMENT view and recommended characteristics of a leader, it seems to me that by asking others what to do, your father has given up the leader position he thought he had.

As I have walked (do to my business) from church to church across the USA, pastors these days (in the majority of cases) are not to close to the administration of churches; perhaps this is an avenue for this church to prevail time and the many (clear or obscure) personal agendas of the leaders you mentioned in your original message.

Your father may need to call upon the services of a third party (an outsider) committed and knowledgeable of church affairs to set up a new path within new parameters and most important with the correct set of directors, leaders and administrators for the church.

Since you did not mention the number of members (the size) of this church, I will assume is a small church (perhaps no more than 200 families), it seems to me that it is a good time to set a foundation based on proper methodology and clear administration for the church to grow and gain the stability needed to perform the natural objective of the church of Jesus. Remember this, this church is not your father’s is Jesus church.

Francisco Chaparro